Guest: Betty Reardon, Founder of Peace Education Program at Teachers College, Columbia University
Host: Swarna Rajagopalan, Founding member of Women’s Regional Network.
Professor Reardon's pioneering work in peace, Education and Human Rights has laid the foundation for a new cross disciplinary integration of peace education and international human rights, from a gender global perspective, one of the first to make clear the connection between sexism, patriarchy and militarism, she has held the gender equality and justice are a prerequisite of peace, and women's participation and agency, a precondition of any sustainable peace.
Swarna Rajagopalan, reflects with Professor Betty on some of the most pressing concerns.
Q. In the 20 years since United Nations Security Council Resolution 1325, on women, peace, and security, was adopted unanimously by the UN Security Council, what has been the most tangible successes, and what are the most regrettable failures on our part, in your view?
Q. Talking about Afghanistan, in what way to recent events that reflect the shortcomings of the effectiveness, where has 1325 worked, and having an NAP worked for Afghanistan, and where has it not?
Q. With regard to international affairs, because you feel that you're this one small citizen in some distant part of the world, and your voice is too faint for the world to hear. So where would you suggest that people start as peace builders? Me?
Conversation: 24 September 2021
Guest: Betty Reardon, Founder of Peace Education Program at Teachers College, Columbia University
Host: Swarna Rajagopalan, Founding member of Women’s Regional Network.
Professor Reardon's pioneering work in peace, Education and Human Rights has laid the foundation for a new cross disciplinary integration of peace education and international human rights, from a gender global perspective, one of the first to make clear the connection between sexism, patriarchy and militarism, she has held the gender equality and justice are a prerequisite of peace, and women's participation and agency, a precondition of any sustainable peace.
Swarna Rajagopalan, reflects with Professor Betty on some of the most pressing concerns.
Q. In the 20 years since United Nations Security Council Resolution 1325, on women, peace, and security, was adopted unanimously by the UN Security Council, what has been the most tangible successes, and what are the most regrettable failures on our part, in your view?
Q. Talking about Afghanistan, in what way to recent events that reflect the shortcomings of the effectiveness, where has 1325 worked, and having an NAP worked for Afghanistan, and where has it not?
Q. With regard to international affairs, because you feel that you're this one small citizen in some distant part of the world, and your voice is too faint for the world to hear. So where would you suggest that people start as peace builders? Me?
Conversation: 24 September 2021
Conversation recorded on 24 September 2021
Guest: Betty Reardon, Founder of Peace Education Program at Teachers College, Columbia University
Host: Swarna Rajagopalan, Founding member of Women’s Regional Network.
0:04 | Swarna
Welcome to the Women Peace and Rights podcast hosted by the Women's Regional Network. WRN amplifies the voices of conflict-affected women in order to address the interlinked issues of peace and justice, governance and security. Network members have come from Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and Sri Lanka, as well as East Africa. I'm Swarna, the WRN founding member. And I'm delighted today to welcome our guest, Professor Betty Reardon.
Professor Betty Reardon, who actually needs no introduction, is a pioneering feminist peace educator and activist who has worked to introduce a gender perspective into peace education, as it is practised in formal and non-formal learning settings. She is the founder of the Peace Education Program at Teachers College, Columbia University, which was founded in 1983. The International Institute on Peace Education IIPE, founded in 1982, and the global campaign for peace education GCP, founded in 1999.
Professor Reardon's pioneering work in peace, Education and Human Rights has laid the foundation for a new cross-disciplinary integration of peace education and international human rights, from a gender global perspective, one of the first to make clear the connection between sexism, patriarchy and militarism, she has held the gender equality and justice are a prerequisite of peace, and women's participation and agency, a precondition of any sustainable peace.
It's really always a privilege to speak with you, Betty and I cannot but start with 1325 in the process of getting to which you were a very integral part of. So in the 20 years since the adoption of 1325, what has been the most tangible successes, and what are the most regrettable failures on our part, in your view?
2:05 | Betty Reardon
Well, first, let me say it's wonderful to talk to you and see you. And to engage in this ongoing conversation, because it seems that we're deeply integrated into learning together about how gender impacts issues of human security, war and peace.
As anyone who knows, my work knows, I consider 1325 to be really a major landmark and all of the standards that have been set by the United Nations. And I think we have to understand 1325 from its roots, rather than only from how it pervades, people come become acquainted with 1325, as the United Nations Security Council resolution on Women, Peace and Security, and think of it in terms of an institutional declaration or regulation, when in fact, it is a statement. Granted, it is in the language of the institution. But it was a statement of goals, worldview and purposes of the women who saw it as a necessity. And they saw it as a necessity of a way of getting into the system that seemed to be one of the dominant actors in war and peace. So when I think of what the major successes are, I think of that process, civil society, women being the initial energy, and I also think of how that process has continued as civil society, women's groups associated with the UN and subsequently, women's groups on the ground, taking 1325 as a guideline for their own actions in their own situations, so that the most significant successes of 1325 have in local and regional settings, where this standard has been used to empower women to decrease violence and become participants in security issues in their own societies just to be brief about their response.
In terms of the shortcomings, I think the shortcomings have been to many of the activists as well as the members of the institutions. That is, the people in the UN agencies, the delegations and so forth, have concentrated on the nation-state as the actor of implementation. And that was very problematic from the beginning, but was seen as the way to implement 1325 was to get national plans of action, but I can tell you that most of them have not been very effective in actual implementation, the implementation is coming from the ground. And the national plans are and can be used in the same way. The resolution itself was as the political rationale on which to act. And having been granted the right to act. So most of this in terms of what is going on has happened and will happen in the future is going to come from the ground. And that's why it's very important for women to realize that they do have agency and they have power when they exercise that power like any muscle gets stronger as you use it.
5:47 | Swarna
In fact, as you were talking about the use of NAPs (National Action Plans), in the same way as 1325, is an advocacy tool. I was remembering that many of the petitions and letters that have circulated in the last six months around the US withdrawal from Afghanistan have actually pointed to the existence of a US NAP, I think the WPS act that was passed a couple of years ago. And so yes, absolutely. That's an illustration of exactly what you said. So talking about Afghanistan, in what way to recent events that reflect the shortcomings of the effectiveness, where has 1325 worked, and having an NAP worked for Afghanistan, and where has it not?
6:32 | Betty Reardon
Well, it has in this sense, 1325 was originally cited by those of us in starting out in the United States, but reaching out to collaborators around the world, when we realized what the consequences to women were going to be on the very rapid with for all US and NATO troops from Afghanistan. And on the basis, we appealed to the president and ultimately to US ambassador to the UN and to take action to protect women on the basis of 1325, which obligates member states to protect women in armed conflict. We used that as the rationale. It became verbalized as a rationale. And although 1325 was mentioned by the media, it was once or twice mentioned in the Security Council, it was not the rationale for any of the supposes policies about Afghanistan.
And since August 15, in efforts to somewhat control somewhat modify the dialogue with the Taliban, it hasn't been mentioned, because it is anathema to the Taliban could trigger some facts that we wouldn't want. So it seems to me that here is another phase, how to deal with 1325 that we need to understand and be familiar with what it calls for, and ask for it in ways and in language that are not trigger points. So I think 1325 has been helpful in the sense of our knowing the obligation is there, but it hasn't really fully been in, in my opinion, other people will have other opinions. In my opinion, we have not been able to use it as or the system has not used it as an effective instrument. And it's one reason I think why there has been no significant intervention to protect women. There's a lot of verbiage, a great deal of verbiage. But there's been no practical action, no specification of sanction, little warnings, but nothing actionable.
8:55 | Swarna
Would you say the what we're witnessing, in terms of the non-effectiveness of 1325, with the absence of the deep benefit from this cause serious absence is actually a symptom of what some others are calling a pushback on the WPS agenda itself, with the resolutions that sought to dilute the sexual and reproductive health protections, you know, watering down the commitment to even the token commitment to WPS in order to appease the Taliban and did you see, read this as part of a large pushback.
9:34 | Betty Reardon
No, I don't I don't I don't say there's definitely I don't even think it's a pushback, because the main actors that are pushing forward, repression of women, denial of reproductive rights are the same actors who are repressing democracy and other ways in you know, we have a little petri dish in Texas where there is an experiment with authoritarianism, fundamentalist, religious authoritarianism, which is very familiar to anybody who is familiar with the conditions in Afghanistan. But that is I think that's a part from 1325. Because most of these people don't even know 1325 exists, I think the failure is not of 1325, I think it is a failure of the system to use 1325. And to work out a way of using it, not just to say we can't use it, because it's, that's a red flag. But it's like every challenge: systemic challenge, you have to find a way to operate within the system, that doesn't set the system of balance, if you're not ready for that to take place. If you're ready to topple the system, and you got an alternative, okay, go with it. But if you don't, you need to work in the system and around the system. But that means you have to think of alternatives. And that's not the way most of the people in power think they don't think in multiple alternatives. They think transactionally!
11:04 | Swarna
It's a really important distinction; I think to keep in mind. And that brings me to my next question, which is, which actually comes out of an exchange you and I had the last few months, where I felt desperate and helpless? And what can we do and what difference is making? You said to me, and I love these words, the operative pronoun is we and others who listen to this and will feel like I do, I think particularly with regard to international affairs, because you feel that you're this one small citizen in some distant part of the world, and your voice is too faint for the world to hear. So where would you suggest that people start as peace builders? Me?
11:49 | Betty Reardon
Well, I think one of the ways to start is with that word, despair, and powerlessness are felt by one, I feel powerless. I am despairing. You cannot say that for others, unless you are in some sort of support group where you're all dealing with your despair. But to understand that, although we experienced this very subjectively, and I certainly that has been my experience through working with Afghanistan, where the people in peril are people who I have come to know, I know their names, I know their profiles, I know their circumstances. And their situation is painful to me. And it is leading to from time to time, outrage at power structures, who could liberate them who are not taking steps to do that. So that means all of that falls to us. I am not powerful, except to change myself, which is helpful. But once I have collaborative relationships with others, who have the same concerns, then I have the possibility to act beyond myself, I have the possibility also to think with them.
What is it that we despair of? Why do we despair? What are their circumstances that are creating this despair? What in those circumstances do we have an opportunity to intervene in? Where can we act even if it's only in, in our own kitchens? That's not such a bad example, in the United States, we could look at our kitchens and what we have in our kitchens, and what we buy, and what we use in terms of how that affects other people's lives, you know, and that is one way to begin to be looking at those connections and how the circumstance that we might be able to intervene and could link to another circumstance. And then the question is, how do we have our, we reach out to other ways? How do you start to make those interconnections? How do you keep them alive in a situation of repression, and threat, these are all issues that we actually face, but we can, we can deal with them, we face them, but we have to see them, we have to look beyond ourselves and our own feelings to where the feelings come from. You know, I am part of a very small network that is working on protection of Afghan women. And we have had few successes, very few successes, but we learn and we continue to learn and we find other possibilities and we haven't run out of possibilities yet I firmly believe as long as we keep looking, we will find possibilities.
14:48 | Swarna
Thank you for saying that. I actually wanted that on record, I wanted people to be able to go back to hear this because this is something that we need to remind each other and remind ourselves of, over and over. When we get up in the morning and on the mornings that you know, the first thing you do is you read the news, and it wants you to shut down..
15:10 | Betty Reardon
Tell you I take my morning coffee very often from a mug, on which is emblazoned, my friend Peter Weiss’s favorite saying despair is not an option.
15:20 | Swarna
I need to get a copy of your mug and have my morning tea with it. Although, I rarely despair that much myself, but this month, August, September, these two months have been, you know, well last year, we the year that we lost to the pandemic was a year of many happy landmarks and minds milestones: Beijing and 1325. And, you know, named them perfectly every three months, we were we were to celebrate something. This has been the opposite kind of August, September, because we watched the humanitarian crisis. We watched it coming and we couldn't stop it. And then we watched it unfold, and then the anniversary of 9/11. And I'm thinking as parents, as aunts and uncles, as teachers, I know that these are teachable moments. But where do you start that conversation in a world that's so full of fiction, in fact, all mixed up together? Outrage master’s opinion? How do you grab that teachable moment? How do you have the conversation we want?
16:27 | Betty Reardon
I think the conversation, whether it's with children in the school room, or friends around the table, has to begin finding some common frames of reference, and also has to start with understanding how all of the participants are entering the frame of reference. And in the case of classroom, it's very important for teachers to understand that there are some very simple kinds of ways always with questions are set to raise the question, has your family been discussing what has happened in Afghanistan? Have you seen something on TV about Afghanistan? What do you know about it? How do you feel about it? And so you'll begin to build a common ground information and responses to the information, then you go in into the higher levels? It was called analysis.
But you could say, and why do you think this happened? Do you think something else could have been done? Do you think something can be done now to help? And who are the people who could do those things? Are there anything that you yourself could do? So that what you want, I think to do is to open a vision of a situation in a systemic context for the question who should be acting, because their responses are probably going to be multiple. So as you put those together, you can illuminate a cause simply illuminate a system and say, Okay, here are the places where something could be done. And maybe we could encourage some of these people or do something ourselves, so that you begin to get them to think about how they might have political advocacy, and how they might have specific civic efficacy in and of themselves in their own groups. But it's always with questions, and seldom ever making statements are encouraging reflection on values by the questions you ask. But all, you know, I have always talked in teaching about the front burner in the back burner. And the front burner is what's coming out of the teachers mouth, largely in response to what the students are saying and what's on the back burner are a specific strategy and plan and a learning goal. And negotiating the space between the front burner and the back burner is what we call teaching.
19:25 | Swarna
Lovely! I'm going to take that into class prep tomorrow. You know, it's one of the great privileges of the present moment of my life that I get to work with you. And it's always a privilege to talk with you and to learn from you, always an education. So I want to thank you for your time and generosity in doing this podcast interview for WRN. Thank you so much.
19:50 | Betty Reardon
Thank you, Swarna. And thank you for the questions that helped me to learn because I always learn in these conversations as I always learned in every classroom session. So thank you very much.
20:03 | Swarna
Thank you very much for listening to this episode of Women, Peace and Rights podcast. We look forward to your comments and feedback, please visit our website, womensregionalnetwork.org and connect with us through Twitter at @WRNnews.
Thank you very much.